[MERGED] Idaho filling?

[Royger]

I'm taking a trip from Utah County (Utah) to West Yellowstone Montana. I'm going I-15 straight up. I checked the "Alternative fuel station locator" and it's saying that all the CNG stations are private or government. Is this true? Does anyone know for sure? Thanks.

[Harpoon]

Intermountain Gas. They have private fill stations for their own vehicles only. I have heard the INEEL (Idaho Falls/Pocatello) has a fill station however I do not know if it is public or private.

EDIT:
I just emailed Intermountain Gas the questions below:

I see on your website you promote Natural Gas Vehicles, however I am unable to find a Idaho location to refill my 2000 Chevy Cavalier bi-fuel CNG. Is there and account I can setup with Intermountain Gas to be able to fill my NGV? Please advise.

Thank you,
________

I'll post their response. I am sure it will include, "We have no way of collecting road tax on the fuel." To which I ask, "How do you pay road tax on your NGVs?"

[Harpoon]

Intermountain Gas Response:
Hi ________:

Our filling stations are for our private use only. We do not dispense to the public, so we won't be able to establish a CNG vehicle account with you. We do have a CNG tariff for delivery to customer-provided filling stations or appliances. The customers must provide their own filling equipment.

Here's a link to a website for household-type filling equipment:

http://www.myphill.com

Best Regards,

{employee's information removed by CNGchat moderator}
Market Products and Services Manager
Intermountain Gas Company
www.intgas.com (http://www.intgas.com)
P.O. Box 7608
Boise, Idaho 83707
555 S. Cole Rd.
Boise, Idaho 83709
office phone: 208-377-6080
cell: 208-867-9957
fax : 208-377-6097
e-mail: {employees information removed by CNGchat moderator}To bad they won't drive a truck to ones house and deliver natural gas at 3600 PSI in to a large cylander with a fill nozzle for a NGV :)

[John Mitton]

Good try, Harpoon!

We should all keep hounding Intermountain Gas to open up to the public like Questar and Oklahoma Gas, etc. I just wrote to the Idaho Clean Cities coordinator to see what they can do to put pressure on them. Others might do likewise:
http://air.idaho.gov/clean_cities/cc_main.htm

Putting on my moderator hat for a moment, I think we need to be a little careful in exposing private e-mails onto this chat board. Most boards have a rule to allow posting so long as the sender's information is obfuscated. I will update the Terms and Conditions accordingly.

[Idarusskie]

They used to have a CNG fueling station on Grandview (hyway 20) and I-15. However, the company went out of business. The tanks and compressor are still there. The property was just purchased by the bus company that makes trips up from Utah. I think its trailways??? I do not know if they will run the CNG or not. It would make sense to convert some of their buses. But they run better on LNG then CNG.


An interesting side note: The INL has both CNG and LNG cars, trucks and buses. Their station at the INL does not use a compressor. They somehow generate CNG using the LNG ( shipped in from Wyoming).

[Idarusskie]

We should all keep hounding Intermountain Gas to open up to the public like Questar and Oklahoma Gas, etc. I just wrote to the Idaho Clean Cities coordinator to see what they can do to put pressure on them. Others might do likewise:
http://air.idaho.gov/clean_cities/cc_main.htm



The problem you will have is Idaho Falls is not in a non-compliance zone. in other words nobody has to get a smog check there. So, there are not any government incentives( Pocatello is in the same boat). When they sold CNG there it was the same price as gasoline. I looked into setting one up years ago and they would like to but the money is not in it for them. Their compressor was very simple and I suppose not a listed system. They can get away with it because they are the gas company and handle gas all the time.
It would take 350,000 for the listed public equipment.

[CNGFLT]

Does anyone know what it would take to get some of the Idaho stations made public?

[Curtis]

First the station owner would have to agree to spend around $100,000 to provide a Weights & Measures approved dispencer in a publicly accessible area with a card reader and training video. It could be done for less with used equipment, but the agencies that might back or provide grants for such a venture usually go with new.

Go to your Clean Cities Coalition, or AQMD rep and have a sit down. Determine if it's something they would back with grants should you find willing participants. Or start with the companies that you want to open and see if they'll play ball if you find backers to reimburse the vast majority of the costs of doing so.

Realize that they will have to pay all up-front costs and wait to be reimbursed. That makes it a harder pill to swallow for many companies.

[Devo]

I emailed an individual at the city of Boise a few weeks ago. I was informed that they have discussed the idea of opening the pumps to the public, but that so far it's a no go. I was informed that in the past there has not been any interest in opening the pumps to the public because of a lack of infrastructure and Intermountain Gas' disinterest in providing CNG for public vehicles. Only the bus system and Intermountain Gas vehicles run on CNG at the moment, with few private vehicles in the area. I was informed though that interest is picking up and that they were not sure where things would lead.

If we continue to write and request it (both from within and without Idaho), maybe we can get them to make the pumps public. I know that would help my Utah/Colorado commutes now that we've moved to Washington!

[Curtis]

Perhaps you should post some info on who we can contact. We are mounting a campaign in Ca to solicit CARB to change a ruling on the quality of cng dispenced to vehicles. Perhaps that's the strength of this group. 1200+ people showing interest in getting things done can make a difference... anywhere!

[cngmike]

For a very limited time The AQMD would only grant new equipment (your former vender had his hands in this). With lobbying by some customers and installers this was receded.

[Idarusskie]

I looked into setting up a CNG station in Idaho Falls 5-10 years ago. I talked with inter mountain gas and an official in Pocatello who was trying to set CNG up for the city buses. They were both willing to help in any way they could. Such as filling up at my station. The problem then was and still is the cost of all of the equipment needed to compress the gas. The numbers were not there to pay for it let alone make a profit. The pollution in Idaho Falls was not anywhere bad enough to get any government help. Even though DOE had and still has many CNG and LNG car and trucks. The government rules state they can not make their pumps public because it would be completing with private companies. yet they were trying to find a way such as putting out for bid the rental of their compressor if I would run it. Still not enough profit in it.

[Devo]

Perhaps you should post some info on who we can contact. We are mounting a campaign in Ca to solicit CARB to change a ruling on the quality of cng dispenced to vehicles. Perhaps that's the strength of this group. 1200+ people showing interest in getting things done can make a difference... anywhere!

I see the following individuals as contacts for the Idaho Clean City Coalition, etc.

Brian Defenbach (bdefen@intgas.com) - Intermountain Gas
Beth Baird (bbaird@cityofboise.org) - City of Boise

[Harpoon]

Moderator we need to combine this thread with:

Other thread (http://www.cngchat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=946&highlight=idaho)

I have sent a few correspondences with InterMountain gas with no satisfactory response. My family lives in Twin Falls, it would be great to make the round trip on CNG instead of only one way on CNG. It coses me $7 to get there and $35 to come home. I have even considered re-emailing them requesting to apply for a job in NGV education or something stupid to give me access to their pump. It is less than 25 feet from the road. We need to send some mass mailings and get them to open the pumps the public. I just can't believe a gas company isn't smart enough to look for a new way to sell your product. As home builds are declining.

[Idarusskie]

If there is not a large enough return to justify the expense of the filling station then the state needs to step up and help set some up. Remember the local gas company can not charge what ever they want for the gas they sell. It is controlled as a utility. They do not have the tank capacity to open it up to the public. So how are they going to pay for the extra equipment? They fill their own trucks slowly overnight. at a .05 or .25 profit per gals how long does it take to repay 350,000 for fueling equipment? at 1.00 how long? if they charged 3.00/ gal would you convert you car?

The problem for Idaho is that the feds will not help out because there are no pollution problem areas in most parts of the state. If you want more CNG filling stations in Idaho you need to be talking with the state and federal government. Try to tie it in with farmers and bio-gas perhaps.

The thing is once you set up a station people will come out of the wood work and convert fleets of vehicles.

Maybe even talk with the state of Wyoming. They have a lot of natural gas wells. Some of which are stranded from the pipeline. Setting up liquid natural gas supplied CNG stations may promote the sale of natural gas and increase their tax revenues. But do not expect the price to be the same as Utah with out some government help.

[Lakewood90712]

The government rules state they can not make their pumps public because it would be completing with private companies. yet they were trying to find a way such as putting out for bid the rental of their compressor if I would run it. Still not enough profit in it.

In so cal , So Cal Gas ( Sempra Energy) Has most of the company cng sites available to the public , but the price is only a bit lower than the C.E. , and sometimes the same.

Have a look at the tarrif on the socalgas website. www.socalgas.com Using gas cost cost , + gas transport cost + cost for compress , about $2.50 gge, regulated by the Cal. public utility commision. Cost to compress (station cost) is about 80 cents gge. Several years ago , so cal gas was allowed to us "Public purpose funds" , to buy down the compression cost by about 1/2 , but that is gone now.

[John Mitton]

Got the two threads merged, thanks Harpoon!

Do we know any specifications on the Intermountain Gas private stations? If they are overnight time-fill only then forget about it. If they are fast-fill, what is the CFM of the compressors? Total storage? Average daily use?

[Harpoon]

The pump in Twin Falls doesn't look like a slow fill imo. You can see it from the street I'll take a picture of it next time I am up there.

[John Mitton]

I learned that Intermountain Gas installed stations for their own vehicles behind the fence and has never been willing to do anything public. The Greater Yellowstone Teton Clean Cities Coalition has been active and has looked at public stations but nothing has ever been done. There was a CNG station in Idaho falls with equipment that came from INEEL. It closed down a couple years ago.

[Idarusskie]

First the station owner would have to agree to spend around $100,000 to provide a Weights & Measures approved dispencer in a publicly accessible area with a card reader and training video. It could be done for less with used equipment, but the agencies that might back or provide grants for such a venture usually go with new.

Go to your Clean Cities Coalition, or AQMD rep and have a sit down. Determine if it's something they would back with grants should you find willing participants. Or start with the companies that you want to open and see if they'll play ball if you find backers to reimburse the vast majority of the costs of doing so.

Realize that they will have to pay all up-front costs and wait to be reimbursed. That makes it a harder pill to swallow for many companies.

Now in theory one could weigh the cars as they come in and weigh them when they leave and calculate the gas dispensed.

http://www.netweigh.com/pages/portabletk.php

a lot less then 100,000.
But then you would need to have someone there to do the weighing and take the money. credit card machines are extra but not a requirement.


I know of a lot of large farms around there in Idaho that would have truck scales on them that could dispense fuel to their neighbors. kind of semi private. Once people are trained then they can have the keys to the pump.

[Curtis]

I doubt that would fly with Weights & Measures, but I like the creative approach. A gge of cng weighs 5.56 lbs I think. Call them and ask. You can pick up used equipment and spend about 1/2 the $250k needed to put in a modest public station. Or form a co-op Charge monthly fees and give the gas away free. That negates W & M all together. The co-op could pool funds to put the station/s together and state and federal grants may reimburse possibly 90% of the investment. Talk to your air district, federal farm rep or state representative. Start digging... As determined as you seem to be, you will find a way.

[minimade]

in dover delaware at the 1 public fill, there is a box with a clipboard and pump is always available. I am the only user except the gas company...and they only have 2 cng vehicles.....and I have a slow fill 2 miles away. It is so low profile that no weights and measures sticker is on pump. You might even get gas company to take honor payments by check at the pmp.

[Curtis]

I learned that Intermountain Gas installed stations for their own vehicles behind the fence and has never been willing to do anything public. The Greater Yellowstone Teton Clean Cities Coalition has been active and has looked at public stations but nothing has ever been done. There was a CNG station in Idaho falls with equipment that came from INEEL. It closed down a couple years ago.

There's you solution. A turnkey station. buy it and move it, or buy the land too. Have the compressor services and you're in business. Probably pick it up for next to nothing... relatively speaking. You may get the whole thing for $25-$35k, maybe less, way less. Have the equipment inspected prior to purchase and pray that the storage is ASME, rather than DOT.
Curtis

[Idarusskie]

I know the station your are talking about. its about 1/2 mile from my house. They wanted 350,000 when it was for sale. A bus company just purchased it. They need to be converting their buses because they run from Idaho Falls to Utah. Perhaps I can talk with them about opening it up to the public.

At this point there are a limited number of customers and one could video tape each one to see how much they took. if one were to drive off for example. and there are 100 customers in town it should be easy to call them up and get the money or just lock them out.