Saltwater - The Alternative Fuel of the Future

[Highmarker]

Now this is cool.

[Highmarker]

Sorry,

The file I am trying to upload is a .wmv file. Is there anyway I can upload this file?

[Highmarker]

I finally uploaded the file.

[John Mitton]

That's pretty cool.
But I wonder how much energy is required to generate the radio wave? Hopefully less than the energy burned by the salt water.

[smggt]

That is way cool so is this one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMovXzVOzc4
Check it out. the guy is already running on water

[Highmarker]

Yep,

It's called electrolysis. When you pass an electrical current through water you get oxygen coming off one end of the wire and hydrogen coming off the other end of the other wire. Check out www.water4gas.com for more information. Apparently these guys want $97 for a manual and it shows you to make your car run off of water. It is supposed to get you more that 50% increase in gas mileage. I have been itching to try it.

[Steve]

Jared,

Don't buy the manual. In this day and age when all the manuals you need can be had for nothing or next to nothing from the internet somehow this company feels that their manual is worth $97. Also, their website looks a lot like the spam with all sorts of customer testimonials with outrageous claims.

When you 'burn' hydrogen, the resulting product is water. When you burn wood, the resulting product are ashes. Now imagine trying to reconstitute ashes back into wood to burn it. This is what you are doing with water through electrolysis. No matter how this company spins it, it takes more energy to get hydrogen through electrolysis than you get from 'burning' the hydrogen.

Steve

[smggt]

Yep,

It's called electrolysis. When you pass an electrical current through water you get oxygen coming off one end of the wire and hydrogen coming off the other end of the other wire. Check out www.water4gas.com for more information. Apparently these guys want $97 for a manual and it shows you to make your car run off of water. It is supposed to get you more that 50% increase in gas mileage. I have been itching to try it.

Try it I want to know to. It only takes one person to try it and it works for it to be a great idea, and if it doesn't oh well.
Let us know.

[rtry9a]

Jared,

Don't buy the manual. In this day and age when all the manuals you need can be had for nothing or next to nothing from the internet somehow this company feels that their manual is worth $97. Also, their website looks a lot like the spam with all sorts of customer testimonials with outrageous claims.

When you 'burn' hydrogen, the resulting product is water. When you burn wood, the resulting product are ashes. Now imagine trying to reconstitute ashes back into wood to burn it. This is what you are doing with water through electrolysis. No matter how this company spins it, it takes more energy to get hydrogen through electrolysis than you get from 'burning' the hydrogen. Incidentally, they do not use saltwater, it is tap water with an electrolite added, like baking soda or vinegar.

I think the idea is VERY interesting, as hydrogen is the most common element in the universe.

Steve

If you are trying to build a perpetetual motion machine, you are correct due to the Laws of Energy conservation. That is not what the system is about.

The goal is to change electrical "waste" energy (abt 10 amps) from your alternator and use it to electrolyze water it into HHO, or Brown's gas, which is combustible (and explosive), which burns with, and extends the gasoline mileage of your vehicle. It is similiar to the dual fuel cng-diesel conversion, but with gasoline.

[Steve]

How is there electrical waste energy? If electricity is not flowing, it is not wasted. If there is a short circuit of sorts, electricity is used. Since I am not an auto mechanic, there will be something I don't know about the vehicle's electrical system (which would be about 90% of it).

Steve

[rtry9a]

Your alternator is always spinning as long as the motor is running- whether it supplies electrons to the battery or not- that depends switches in the regulator that reads the total electrical load. Powering the electrolysis cell might make the alternator run harder/longer but not anything you will notice; the reduced cost of fuel you will definitely notice.

The sellers claim mileage increases in the 20-50% range which I feel is a big deal with $4.00 gasoline. That reduction certainly falls in the savings range that makes it cost competitive with cng in most areas, at a much lower initial cost and less hassle trying to find fuel, and not limited to "spartan" recycled vehicles or a hard-to-obtain overpriced foreign econobox.

I wonder if HHO is compatable with cng? It certainly is with dual fuel vehicles when using gasoline.

[Highmarker]

Here's where I am confused about this whole electrolysis thingy.

If you take the oxygen and hydrogen from the water and dump it into the air in-take on your car. Does your car sense the added fuel (oxygen and hydrogen) coming in and automatically lean down the gasoline?

[rtry9a]

Im far from versed in this- still investigating it myself. Im not particularly concerned, because I already have an aftermarket system where I can modify Ford computer settings and select from one of 4 self-programmed ignition and fuel program tables by laptop if desired (using the Tweecer chip)

I believe it all depends on the fuel injection system involved. If a vehicle modifies its mixture in closed loop, some way to modify the O2 sensor output might be needed. I believe HHO is normally injected in front of the throttle body.

If the system is speed density, it might be as easy as injecting the HHO after the maf- in effect fooling the engine into thinking that it is coasting (making more power than the throttle position suggests it should be, in other words, going the same speed/more power at a lower throttle setting).

I believe the HHO is bled below the carb, directly into the intake manifold on older vehicles.

[Curtis]

Several months ago Myth Busters tested one of these online, do it yourself hydrogen generators, it ended up being busted. They got worse mileage and the car didn't run as well when the thing was tied into the system and operating.

It was determined that it couldn't generate enough hydrogen, assuming it was doing so in the first place, to do what it claimed. So who's going to step up and build the first one??? It does sound good in theory though. I think Aluminum Gallium Alloy carries more promise... just add water to it, no electricity required, and it can be easily recycled and reused. Google it, there's a cool video on Google or YouTube about it.

[smggt]

Several months ago Myth Busters tested one of these online, do it yourself hydrogen generators, it ended up being busted. They got worse mileage and the car didn't run as well when the thing was tied into the system and operating.

It was determined that it couldn't generate enough hydrogen, assuming it was doing so in the first place, to do what it claimed. So who's going to step up and build the first one??? It does sound good in theory though. I think Aluminum Gallium Alloy carries more promise... just add water to it, no electricity required, and it can be easily recycled and reused. Google it, there's a cool video on Google or YouTube about it.

If someone will donate there skills on installation, and the kit. I will possibly donate the test car. Just a thought

[Curtis]

If you plan to do more than experiment, you'd better plan to make some engine mods. Remember, H2O + steel = Rust. Stainless exaust and ceramic coated engine parts would be needed if it has a steel block or exaust, as water is the end product.

[rtry9a]

Aren't water vapor and CO2 the waste products of cng combustion?:rolleyes: If anything, that combination is worse, since it produces acid (carbonic acid).

[Steve]

I am pretty sure that there is no waste electricity for the simple fact that my air conditioner in my car will use more power when it is on. If electrolysis is used to get hydrogen as a combustible gas, then you need to create enough hydrogen to offset the reduced usage of gasoline.

As a genertor spins (or alternator), a potential energy (voltage) is reached at both terminals. The gasoline engine will work harder until this voltage (12 volts let's say) is reached. At this point there is little work that needs to be done to maintain this voltage. When electrical equipment is attached to the terminals, electrons will flow and the gasoline engine will need to work harder to maintain this voltage. The whole system has a certain capacity (10 amps for example). Past this capacity, too many electrons flow, the friction gets too high, and wires start evaporating.

Also, to offset the energy that is not coming from gasoline, you need a comprable source of energy from the combustible hydrogen. One liter of water will not be enough for a comprable source of hydrogen.

Here is a nice little description about carbonic acid. It looks like the CO2 and H2O need a catalyst in order for them to join together to form carbonic acid:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonic_acid

Steve

[Andy-Paul]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water-fuelled_car

I'm putting my money on what these guys say, and here's why in a nutshell. Water is very happy in its covalent bonded state--that's why there is so much of it. Brown's gas is a very unstable state of matter which requires a lot of energy to keep it from making itself more stable. To get a water molecule to dissociate into 2 H atoms and an O takes a whole lot of energy. Also saltwater is not good for metal. Sodium is very active (alkali metal at that) and the chlorine is--well, it's chlorine. Their bond is much less stable than that of water, so there's a much greater chance for corrosion. Ever have to keep the metal parts of a beach house from rusting out?

Having said all that, the premise of the PEM fuel cell (proton exchange membrane) is based precisely upon that proposition. Last time I checked (c. 2004) the preferred membrane was the polymer PTFE(?--one trade name used was Goretex) acting as either platinum substrate or with platinum wire in the weave.

There are very well-funded efforts underway to get away from platinum and into aluminum + ???? alloys on less expensive polymer substrates. Curtis might be right about Al-Ga, but I am way out of date in that field.

For high temperature jollies (say just above the melting point of aluminum) you can make a mighty big pop by passing superheated steam over the surface of the aluminum melt. That's how aluminum ore smelters get blown apart from time to time, and the chunks come off in Cadillac sized pieces! For my money, that's by far the most interesting way to free up hydrogen :D

[rtry9a]

Catylists are normally used to promote chemical reactions at low temperatures when they normally (without the catylist) require a lot of energy to initiate. I dont know if this is the case or not, but the heat from combustion in an engine likely provides more than enough energy for the reaction.

Carbonic acid is the stuff in soda pop that makes the fizz- the fact that it is instable is the reason why CO2 bubbles form when the pressure is released and the soda eventually goes flat.

HHO does not normally use saltwater for sodium ions- the chlorine released is poisonous and the salt destroys electrodes and clogs lines. Most use either a basic solution with baking soda (bicarbonate ion) or Lye (hydroxide ion), or a weak acid solution like vinegar for the electrolye.

The reason HHO works to improve mileage is not by direct fuel replacement, but because it makes gasoline burn more efficiently- some claim because of smaller gasoline droplets, some say because of steam generation. Who knows? The only constant are reports of better fuel economy in the 20-50% range.

Im skeptical with most of the adhoc reporting of the HHO generation stuff Ive seen- some of the setups are hokey at best, but a few experiments/systems have been very well done; so, as far as I concerned, the jury is still out. The system is simple to make and probably worth a try out of interest, if nothing else- what is there to loose? The reported savings are similiar to cng's, while the hardware is far cheaper, the technology works on any vehicle, and operation a lot less hassle.

[CraziFuzzy]

The only potential gains from something like this would be the lesson learned to not do it again. The only way they have every been able to claim increased mileage would be in a poor running engine, where the hydrogen allows poorly vaporized gasoline to burn better. Some 'kits' include fuel preheaters, which improve vaporization, and DO work on older engines. They claim the gains are from the hydrogen, when in fact it is because the fuel is closer to it's evaporative temperature. If your engine is modern and well designed, the gas is burned completely already, so this would do nothing. All it would do would take some hp from the engine, put it through the alternator, and generating heat in the electrolyser. If you feel the need to add some extra heat under your hood, go ahead.

This is just a method for scammers to use the hydrogen buzz word phenomenom to get suckers money. I would have hoped there would be fewer suckers in this community.

[smggt]

This is just a method for scammers to use the hydrogen buzz word phenomenom to get suckers money. I would have hoped there would be fewer suckers in this community.

I don't think that it is a matter of there being suckers in this community as much as it is people looking for alternatives, and info. Some people may not have the intellect that you seem to have, on this subject. So I don't think that quallifies people as being a sucker. A sucker would be someone with the facts and knows better, and still proceeds forward. (In my mind)

[CraziFuzzy]

I don't think that it is a matter of there being suckers in this community as much as it is people looking for alternatives, and info. Some people may not have the intellect that you seem to have, on this subject. So I don't think that quallifies people as being a sucker. A sucker would be someone with the facts and knows better, and still proceeds forward. (In my mind)

I didn't mean to sound harsh, and i don't think that definition of sucker is all that accurate.. a sucker is more someone who only hears the pitch, and moves forward, before knowing any facts. Fortunately for cons like this, there are a LOT of people that are just such suckers... much like the 'journalists' who wrote this article, without performing any fact-checking.

[rtry9a]

The scientific method suggests that one prove a hypothesis incorrect before a decision is made. Has anyone here actually tried an experiment with measurements before the conclusion was reached?

If anything, there are far more data that suggests this works than that it does not. I have heard a lot of crap that natgas is a farce too, should we take those assertions at face value?

I learned a long time ago to ignore other's opinions and prove things for myself. It is the smart thing to do. If proven wrong, so much the better. That is a big reason why I"m going to try a conversion myself and ... screw the epa idiots and the vested interests who claim I cannot.

[CraziFuzzy]

Existing laws of thermodynamics already disprove this one. They are claiming that the water is providing extra energy here, which is not the case. The process here is Mechanical Energy from the engine -> Electrical Energy -> Electrolysis, H2O to H2 and O2 -> Combusted in engine -> back to H2O. Even if all of these conversions were perfect, with zero waste, you would end up with no net gain. However, considering that all of these have losses (some, like the electrolysis, have significant losses) and you can see that this system, by itself, would actually be a loss of efficiency.

The only time water is ever used effectively to increase efficiency, is through water injection. This is a method whereby a mist is sprayed into the intake system of the engine. This mist provides more expansion capabilities in the engine, by using excess heat of combustion to flash the water mist to steam, thereby recovering some of the energy that is lost out the tailpipe as heat.

This, however, is usually only used in such things as race applications, where it is only a short duration use, as you can imagine that introducing more water into the mix would result in much more acid formation, resulting in extremely increased engine and exhaust component corrosion/wear.

[Curtis]

OOOOOKKKKKKK, I found a guy with a working hydrogen generator! Says he ran it on a car for a short time and the improvements in mileage and performance were dramatic... but, after only a short time the car had a dramatic decrease in performance due to running in a lean condition. He was fumigating after the map sensor (I think he said). Anyway, without being tied into the cars OBDII system, he was having some real issues. He said he might be willing to try it on my car. Do you rocket scientist types out there have any suggestions about the best way to tie it in and get the best result. I know the GX can run 20%+ Hydrogen with no modifications. The computers can compensate for the lean burn. What do we need to know to make this test likely to succeed. Oh, and for you guys coming to the cruise-in, he's my video and lighting guy, he'll be there... He's the latest attraction.

[ch4]

Yep,

It's called electrolysis. When you pass an electrical current through water you get oxygen coming off one end of the wire and hydrogen coming off the other end of the other wire. Check out www.water4gas.com for more information. Apparently these guys want $97 for a manual and it shows you to make your car run off of water. It is supposed to get you more that 50% increase in gas mileage. I have been itching to try it.

I did this with my Lionel train set transformer. It got warm, real warm. I didn't test the bubbles but both sides (+ and -) had em'.

You can use an inverted test tube to collect the gas. Hydrogen should burst when the match is brought slowly to the tip of the tube, where the oxygen increases the burning if you put a match inside the tube.

WARNING: Hydrogen is explosive. Do not do chemistry without a professional chemist.

It takes a lot of energy to break the tough H20 bond.

Speaking of conspiracy:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/05/29/conspiracy-stan-meyer-and-the-mysterious-elusive-electrolyzer/2

[rtry9a]

Existing laws of thermodynamics already disprove this one. They are claiming that the water is providing extra energy here, which is not the case. The process here is Mechanical Energy from the engine -> Electrical Energy -> Electrolysis, H2O to H2 and O2 -> Combusted in engine -> back to H2O. Even if all of these conversions were perfect, with zero waste, you would end up with no net gain. However, considering that all of these have losses (some, like the electrolysis, have significant losses) and you can see that this system, by itself, would actually be a loss of efficiency.

The only time water is ever used effectively to increase efficiency, is through water injection. This is a method whereby a mist is sprayed into the intake system of the engine. This mist provides more expansion capabilities in the engine, by using excess heat of combustion to flash the water mist to steam, thereby recovering some of the energy that is lost out the tailpipe as heat.

This, however, is usually only used in such things as race applications, where it is only a short duration use, as you can imagine that introducing more water into the mix would result in much more acid formation, resulting in extremely increased engine and exhaust component corrosion/wear.

Noone is trying to build a perpetual motion machine here- what they are doing is taking waste electrical energy from normal driving activity, and using it to electrolyze water into Browns gas. The HHO aids normal combustion; reported to increase the mileage significantly in a number of vehicles. It is a dual fuel application, not a replacement bi-fuel as you suggest.

Ive recently also come across an interesting variation called the Nitro cell- it takes the Browns gas and then further converts it into nitrogen hydroxide by using nitrogen in the air (a close cousin to nitrous oxide (or NOS) and a few other energetic compounds). It is somewhat popular in Australia where a group has run their vehicles primarily on it (not completely, still need to lubricate rings/valves with gasoline byproducts). Reported >100 mpg. If it works anything like they claim, it could be very interesting to say the least.

[CraziFuzzy]

The point that people are missing here, is that there is no wasted electrical energy here, unless you plan on draining your battery. When there is no load on the alternator, it places no strain on the engine, and produces no current. If this H2 generator used electricity, it would cause the alternator to start producing a current, thereby putting the strain on the engine. The amount of energy obtained by burning the hydrogen would be far less than the energy needed from the engine to generate the elecity to generate the hydrogen. I know you guys think this is recovering some sort of waste, but there is no waste to be recovered in the electrical system.

[Curtis]

OK, task one, determine amp draw for this device. I understand the increase in amperage will load the engine, just like turning on the headlights. Why doesn't your gas mileage go down at night then??? Just kidding, but now you have to answer the question because someone else is now wondering if they should only drive during daylight hours... I'll see if I can spec this thing out a little after Thunder.

[rtry9a]

Ive also wondered how much hp it takes to run the alternator- it is certainly less than an air conditioning compressor since we can feel a drop in engine performance when the compressor clutch engages.

Based on my experience, the alternator is not a big load on the engine- I know folks who install 2 alternators on their aircraft with no noticeable losses in engine performance. The only issue I have with Fuzzy's theoretical contention is that it is not possible to get better mileage from a car that has a substantially larger engine loading, if all else is equal, and most folks report 25-50% improved mileage with HHO.

I understand that the improvement can be due to a lot of factors, and some of them might be unrelated to the HHO itself. But, something is influencing the outcome ; Im just not so sure it is a big deal to know the specifics if something works. Like I said before, the jury is still out as far as Im concerned and it is something Id like to investigate when I get a chance.

[CraziFuzzy]

In a generator, the resistive torque is created by the electromotive force from the flowing current. If there is no current, there is no resistance. If there is no load on the alternator, there is no current, so there is no resistive torque, therefore, no load on the engine. Yes, at all times, the engine is using power (coil, electronics, lights, etc.) This causes a set resistive torque proportional to that load. There is no 'waste' other than leakage through the regulator circuits, and friction in the bearings, which will still be there, regardless of whether you have this generator on the car. Driving this brown's gas generator will draw more electric current, which will put a proportional increase in strain on the alternator/engine. The electrical draw of the electrolyzer is far more than the amount of energy to be obtained from the hydrogen.

i guess it's a dead horse here... I don't know how else to explain it.

[rtry9a]

I also don't doubt that there is going to be some tradeoff between the energy to generate the amps needed and the energy claimed from the HHO; I dont know the theoretical details and it may well be less than we can measure given the scaling of engine hp produced and driveline system losses. The big question I think is whether the cost to generate the electricity is made up by the cost of gasoline saved, isnt it? Top down (mpg) vs bottom up (entropy) thinking.

This is the same kind of question raised by supercharging- we know that it takes a bunch of power from the engine to compress air, but the engine makes a lot more power with the extra fuel/air burned. Compare that to turbocharging, where the engine uses "waste" exhaust heat to compress air- no engine power lost, but heat energy is being created. While we could look at energy efficiency as watts or btu's per mile; we can also look at operating efficiency as miles per dollar.

[CNG MOTORS]

I'm going to test this one for myself using a 1 LPM setup on my vehicle and if it looks promising I will try a 10-15 LPM setup on my bigrig runing them in series to keep the amps down. People also told me I was crazy for starting a CNG only car dealership 5 years ago.

I read someone referring to the energy drain caused my the a/c system switch on. When the clutch on the a/c system engages (a/c running) there is a huge energy draw and your MPG will suffer for it. But there is no clutch on your alternator, it spins freely while the engine is running, don't believe there' s any wasted energy.

I've thought about the engine 02 sensors overcompinsating so I also purchased an O2 extender not sure how this will help but it appears to be the only fix for this on the market. I believe the gains will significant in CNG mode, but we'll see I'll report back once I can get some mileage on the vehicle.

[Highmarker]

Check out the link below:

http://gethydropower.com/demos.html

Apparently this is a company that builds these units and sells them. I have two good friends of mine working on building their own hydrogen generators. I am letting them be the "guine pig" before I attempt anything on my CNG Cavalier. They have successfully leaned down the CNG and were getting about 41 MPG with no hydrogen generator. But when they increased the throttle to pass somebody on the freeway, it died. Their goal is to have the hydrogen generator compensate for the leaned out CNG and possible get 50 -60 MPG in a '99 Cavalier.

[Steve]

Here are some efficiency numbers from wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_combustion_engine#Energy_Efficiency
20% of the heat from combusting fuel creates mechanical energy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_motor
85 - 90% of electricity can go into mechanical energy for an electric motor

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis
50 - 70% of the electricity in electrolysis is used in splitting the water molecule into hydrogen and oxygen

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternator
Efficiency of the car alternator is about 60%

So the method here is ICE -> alternator -> electricity -> electrolysis -> hydrogen -> ICE

Given the number of transformations and subsequent loss of the energy in each step, you are better off by using a CNG Prius approach, that is, taking the wasted energy (quick starts for the electric motor, quick stops for regenerative braking, etc) and somehow storing it (batteries in the case of a Prius). Also, it is more efficient to use the hydrogen in a fuel cell technology than to burn it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell#Efficiency

50% of the hydrogen gets used to create the electricity to turn an electric motor (which is 85 - 90% efficient so about 43% of the hydrogen in a fuel cell eventually ends up as mechanical energy) whereas 20% of the fuel burned in an ICE gets turned into mechanical energy.

I would expect a decrease in MPG performance.