Big brother is watching

[smartineau]

I had a misterious phone call yesterday. The man asked if I had any used tanks for sale, then he said he wanted to save money and asked if I sold any tanks that had expired -- which I dont. He then asked if I would install an inexpensive cng kit for him -- No if it is not certified I dont install them. He then asked me if I knew of any inexpensive cng kits he could buy -- You will have to find them yourself as I do not install anything that will bypass the emissions system. The last question was if I was aware of any business that installed non-certified kits that he could call?
I firmly believe that it was an inspector checking to see if we were installing non-certified kits.
Those out there who are detirmined to install {reference to illegal product removed by moderators} -- good luck! If you install it yourself it is only a $2500.00 fine, if a business installs them it could be $2500.00 per day. I also wish any business good luck in finding a customer when faced with a major fine that will lie for you and take the hit without telling them you installed it for them.
This is the second time I have been "tested" since I started selling cng parts.
As one of the state regional "safety inspection" trainers I know a little about how the state checks for those bypassing the system and shortchanging their customer and the environment. I am also the Education team leader for all college automotive programs in the state, serve on an international board for automotive education, and am the automotive department chair where I teach. I can not afford to mess around with non-certified kits and installations.
I will continue to have tanks and supplies for sale, but DO NOT call me about expired tanks, ask me to install an "India" or "Pakistan" or {reference to illegal product removed by moderators} kit, or bypass the computer emission system.
Stan M.

[CNG MOTORS]

Got a call identical to this myself. I think your right, this is probably why we saw a EPA crack down in UT recently

[Ben]

While I do not doubt the veracity of your claim, I have to disagree about which brother is watching. And while you may think that I am making light of the situation by suggesting that it is "little brother" that is watching, I am not. I actually find it to be more disturbing.
You see, anyone trying to create a case would have gone about it in a much different manner. Had you answered yes to any of the questions, the person calling would still have nothing for a list of reasons so long that it would take a lawyer to enumerate them all.
What I find to be the most disturbing is that this has all of the earmarks of a person on this forum who does not like the competition and is spreading doubt and fear because of his/her own insecurity. This forum and most of the folks on it have gone to every reasonable (and some that I can not quite see the reason in) length to make sure everything is above board. Whichever little weasel (and I do hate to besmirch the reputation of our little furry friends with the comparison) did this is trying to add to the cloud of mysticism and reluctance that already surrounds this industry and inhibits wide-spread acceptance. The more folks this person can scare off, the happier he/she will be.

Since Big Brother has to fight by the rules, I am personally more afraid of Little Brother. The enemy is within. The federal government has nothing to gain in this fight.

Ben

[younkin]

As Stan stated above "I firmly believe that it was an inspector checking to see if we were installing non-certified kits.
Those out there who are detirmined to install {reference to illegal product removed by moderators} -- good luck! If you install it yourself it is only a $2500.00 fine, if a business installs them it could be $2500.00 per day. I also wish any business good luck in finding a customer when faced with a major fine that will lie for you and take the hit without telling them you installed it for them."
Who are the agents and what is the agency that is fining people? Do you have copies and references of the laws? Thanks, Jim
PS do you know of local classes for CNG Training and certification?

[smartineau]

I have applied for a grant to bring in training to Utah for CNG installation certification and tank inspection certification.
The problem I am having right now is getting someone to come in and teach the classes. I have contacted NAFTC three times (their advertisements say they will bring the training to your place) and always get the same polite answer. So and so is not available but I will have them return the call when they get back. Evidently whoever the guy is has been gone for five weeks because I have not had any return call & cannot get an answer when I call them.
I sent a message to the college in Las Vegas with the same result.
I can sponsor the training, but cracking this secret code and breaking the monoply seems to be very difficult & I may not be able to get it done. I am still working on it!
Stan

[younkin]

Stan, Thanks for the info, I am going to sign up for the 3 ASE certs for AFV's this fall, Keep me informed, Jim

[vaughnr007]

Younkin, where are you going to take those classes?
Robert

[DannyCNG]

Wow it costs 18 thousand per conversion? I think i want to get into that raquet! lol

Is it illegal to sell expired tanks? why is everyone giving that guy such a hard time?

If it's illegal, then yea i see why. is it?

[DannyCNG]

I just got off the phone trying to purchase some expired tanks from someone who will for now, remain unmentioned. I am trying to get expired tanks for a boat. Which has nothing to do with the D.O.T. I explained that this was the purpose that I'm looking for safe expired tanks, and the guy was actually quite rude. He just interrupted me, and said "I won't sell them to YOU." I continued to explain, for a boat, and he just repeated, "I don't care, I won't sell them to you".

The tanks I'm speaking of have NEVER been installed. They're just past that magical little number stamped on the side... What a freaking waste! And what a jerk!

If it's not illegal, then he's just paranoid to the point of being rude. I'm inclined to agree with you that if ti's not illegal, tey should be more than willing to sell them to you.

[cngbuck]

It would be different, if say for instance they were genuinely concerned for public safety, but most government stiffs just want to get more and more of YOUR money. They have this throw the baby out with the bathwater mentality about enforcement, mostly motivated by $$$$. I am not advocating using illegitimate systems or unsafe conversions, but honestly trying to bait someone into some type of illegal activity is displaying how much of a low-life they really are. There is problably one of them reading these posts just salivating at the idea of really sticking it to somebody so he can have a feather in his cap. They are the same people that when they were kids, were tattle tales that never had any friends. These Dudley Do-rights just mindlessly follow rules like robots, they problably can't even tie their shoes without a government issued instruction booklet that gives all of the safety procedures, certification fees, and mandated class certification for type 1 or type 2 shoelaces, those wearing velcro straps will be fined $2500 for just being too easy to do. Anything that makes sense, the government will be there to mess it up for everyone and regulate it to death. It is the old Federalist idealogy that the government should interfere with every aspect of the common person's life. I happen to agree with Thomas Jefferson, who believed that the government should have a very limited role in peoples day-to-day lives. CNG = Clean, cost effective, efficient driving. Govt/EPA = Red tape, ridiculous regulations, and $4.00 per gallon gas that funds election campaigns.

[younkin]

Robert, In order to take the ASE Classes you need to have experience as a Mechanic, then you can register for the Fall Tests, go to the ASE website and look up the requirements, I have pass most all of the Automotive tests, you will need to have experience and study for them, Jim

[cngmike]

Lets say I have several tanks that are due to expire in the near future yet I have had them setting on a shelf for the last ten years. How or what would you do with them? You could use some of them in personal conversion, give them to people you know and trust. Or sell them to someone that you don't know who might use them or install them in an unsafe manner. The outcome of the second scenario leaves you involved in culpability in an unneeded slap in the face of this industry. It could also leave you in the middle of a lawsuit. I cant help but think of the death of the Super Shuttle driver in Los Angels. A very public death of a very nice man. The shattering of his family. And I am sure a huge lawsuit.

[cnghal]

Lions and Tigers and Bears, Oh My…. Conspiracy Theorist Unite!!! You guys crack me up!
First off, Stan, keep fighting the good fight brother. I get “pinged” and tested regularly myself but not as much as I do on this site by newbies.
Murphy, is it a surprise? We live in a state were if you mention alternative fuels around the government, they dive for cover.
Yes, this industry, like all others has it’s share of miserable bastards. But in my experience, I have found way more positive, helpful and downright friendly people. I have driven from NYC to Tucson on CNG, mostly due to the help and kindness of strangers who share our common suffering. I have driven 80 miles to emergency fuel up a total stranger and his wife who are now friends.
Trust me, if you take that chip off your shoulder for a minute or two, you might actually be "given" the education and shared experience you so desperately need.
As for formal training, have you tried to contact Leo Thomason at www.ngvi.com or at 800-510-6484. Leo is an excellent teacher, a good friend to have, and a wealth of knowledge about this industry. I have taken all of his NGV courses and would recommend them highly. You can even get a grant to pay for the NGV Fuel Storage Cylinder Inspection Safety Training. If your looking for something less formal, I am available to teach small groups the basics of proper system installations and maintenance.
I'm always glad to help. ^

Hal Burlingame
Eco Fuel Solutions

Experienced CNG Installation and Maintenance Technician
CSA Certified Cylinder Inspector
Certified NGV Driver & Mechanic Trainer
Certified CNG Fueling Station Technician
Certified CNG Fueling Station Designer
NGVAmerica Member
NFPA, Voting Member
Tucson Clean Cities Coalition Member

[needofspeed]

Stan
I own a shop in Murray Ut and am finding it very difficlut to find certified equipment, or somewhere we can get certified. Can you help?

Tom Henry
Turn Key Service Tech
801-261-8034

[rtry9a]

The thing that really bothers me here is the assumption that a dyi installation involves shoddy quality and inferior equipment. My experience with most garages has been terrible- they are mostly driven by fast profit, not quality, and they often hire inexperienced and poorly supervised kids to do the work in the back; generally resorting to replacement of parts, not troubleshooting problems. My wife had a traffic accident last year because a big local specialty garage forgot to tighten lug nuts on someones new wheel/tire installation. Their front wheel spun off in traffic, bounced across a major intersection, and hit the wife's Honda while she was waiting on a red light.

If anything, I prefer to fix and install things myself because I know that it was done correctly without cutting corners. Ive found that I can take the money saved and spend it on tools and/or better quality parts. What we really need here is an information source that details the BEST parts and safe installation techniques, not a link to some expensive secret society with butt-kissing papers on the wall.

[On the soapbox] This Country has really degraded into a mind set that assumes that we have to get the Governments' approval to do anything. Problem is, the lawyers in Washington DC have a real problem getting anything correct and completed in a timely manner, unless of course, a big bribe (election contribution) is involved. The Govt should serve the people; the people should not have to serve the power-hungry vampires at every whim.

Bottom line:, It is often easier to get forgiveness than permission. :eek:

[Andy-Paul]

I can say from experience that the biggest issue in private transportation is not lawyers. It is lawyers AND the insurance industry AND lobbyists playing ring around the rosies--which is, historically, a children's song about the Black Death (bubonic plague).

It is certainly difficult to get straight information out of the local gas utilities, as well as out of some refitters--I personally have had good experience with the guys at Transeco in Asheville, NC, and I am thankful for that.

The whole problem with tank dates and how to deal with them comes down to the question of liability. Just because you or I am willing to take the risk does not mean that our survivors are willing to accept that we took that risk of our own free will while sound of mind and body. That's where insurance and lawyers come in. One says the deceased's charred carcass should be evidence enough that he committed suicide by way of insufficient safety precaution, and the other says he was bilked by the tank salesman. The truth is none of the above. So, perhaps we should look for downwardly graduating cost structure for used tanks, based on the original price, the amount of time in service and the current price. Thus, accounting practice would dictate that a tank with 1 year left on it would go for scrap prices plus some agreed upon percentage (let's say mean of 5% original retail and 5% current retail). Then there would be a clearly defined and delineated structure that would keep both the lawyers and the insurance companies from getting out of hand, while placing all due responsibility on the owner and purchaser of any used tank.

This is just a suggestion, and I would love to hear comments upon its utility from tank suppliers and others.

Finally: about tank inspection training. I know that I can get a course in that at the Wake County Technical Community College in Raleigh, NC. You might be able to email them and ask to see if you could line up an instructor who would like a nice vacation. Another possibility might be to contact the ASM International, because I know that they have all kinds of training options for any number of materials issues including metal fatigue, corrosion, etc.

I hope this helps out a little bit.

[cnghal]

First...We kill all the lawyers!!!
Andy,
You are right, especially about Alex and the guys at Transco. They are good friends and honest and hard working techs. I worked with them on one of thier first installs and enjoy visiting them every few months. One of these trips I'm staying. I love Asheville and NC.

Rtry9a,
I'd be more worried about the quality of the equipment coming into this country. This all reminds me of why I am so active in Experimental Aircraft. Most of us builders take greater care with all the little details than any complaisent factory worker ever would or could. We also engineer things that make sense, not dollars. EAAers are all about education, friendship and sharing skills and experiences. I also believe that a factory assisted, end-user installation training course would make for a safe install and a well educated user who could do thier own install, maintenance and repair. After all it is the experimenters who are pushing the technology envelope and not the big factories. Affordable, PC based glass cockpits were being developed by experimenters in the 80s and now you can buy a color lcd flight and engine management system for around $10k.

What do you think? Time to start a grassroots movement to educate everyone who is interested and encourage product development and dare I say "open source" equipment and information for the masses.

Naaa....that's just crazy talk. :p

[cnghal]

Stick in the Mud,
You never know. The EAA started over 50 years ago with a handful of like minded individuals in a basement in Rockford, IL and is now a multi-national not-for-profit organization that is all about education and advancement. They are very influential with the FAA on rulemaking and every year host AirVenture in little old Oshkosh, WI. Upto 750,000 attendees and for one week a year, "the busiest airport in the world". Not bad for a bunch of dreamers! And nobody was telling them they couldn't fly.

Just remember what happens when you tell someone, "You can't do that! because I said so!" ^

[rkcarguy]

I think the EPA is a huge joke. Until you've worked on a vehicle with an air pump you don't realize how much of a joke it really is. Lets take a 70-80's Chev pickup for example. These didn't pass emissions requirements, so an air pump was installed pumping extra air into the exhaust manifolds decreasing the PPM to an acceptable level overall, but not actually decreasing the emissions. Then you've got the extra drag of the air pump and its belt on the engine pulling down mileage and efficiency.......
Sorry to say, I blame ourselves for everything. Why aren't we out in the streets protesting?
Why do we have record high gas prices while our local refineries are full and shut down with full tankers anchored out in the bay?
Why do all our city buses run on natural gas and propane but there is hardly any public fill stations?
I really liked a commercial shown on comedy central, a "little bush" cartoon character said "don't vote, so you can have the freedom to do whatever I say"......

[rtry9a]

First...We kill all the lawyers!!!
Andy,
You are right, especially about Alex and the guys at Transco. They are good friends and honest and hard working techs. I worked with them on one of thier first installs and enjoy visiting them every few months. One of these trips I'm staying. I love Asheville and NC.

Rtry9a,
I'd be more worried about the quality of the equipment coming into this country. This all reminds me of why I am so active in Experimental Aircraft. Most of us builders take greater care with all the little details than any complaisent factory worker ever would or could. We also engineer things that make sense, not dollars. EAAers are all about education, friendship and sharing skills and experiences. I also believe that a factory assisted, end-user installation training course would make for a safe install and a well educated user who could do thier own install, maintenance and repair. After all it is the experimenters who are pushing the technology envelope and not the big factories. Affordable, PC based glass cockpits were being developed by experimenters in the 80s and now you can buy a color lcd flight and engine management system for around $10k.

What do you think? Time to start a grassroots movement to educate everyone who is interested and encourage product development and dare I say "open source" equipment and information for the masses.

Naaa....that's just crazy talk. :p

Funny,
I'm also a member of the Local EAA. I'm currently finishing up the wings on a Vans RV-9a (sealed the tank yesterday), planning on installing a Mazda rotary engine in it later in the year. In addition, I was stationed at Ft Bragg NC for several years... hot, humid, and green! Did I see you at Copperstate last year? I hauled my trailer down there with my cng pickup.

FWIW, I'm not worried about foreign kits- they are light years ahead of the US. Argentina has millions of cng cars on the road as do a bunch of other countries in S America and Europe; the US, maybe several thousand if lucky. Shows the result of big oil bribery in our govt. Its the quality of US conversions Im concerned about???

[rkcarguy]

I think alot of it has to do with necessity. Someone gives a guy with a home converted CNG car a hard time so he has to pay a fine and drive the BMW instead, big deal. When it's drive to work on CNG and feed your family, or pick one only paying for gas/diesel, then it's going to get ugly, and the "taddle tales" are going to find themselves getting shot. When it starts to get that bad, even the "taddle tales" should think about the system they work for and ask themselves wtf?

[scott]

We can go back and forth all day, but someday somebody will take a short cut or make a mistake and hurt themselves or somebody else. It could happen just as easily to a "homebuilt" as well as a production vehicle. Odds are on the homebuilt, but it can go either way. I was also EAA (chapter 11) and built my own aircraft. Another member with a similar aircraft decided to remove the fuel pump and let the carb be gravity fed (like many high wing Cessna models). Well, for this mid-wing design the plans called for a fuel pump. No matter to him. After a high speed pass down the runway and a quick pull up, the engine starved for fuel and he stuffed the plane into a garage door. Then came the news media attacking the "homebuilt aircraft" group. It certainly wasn't intentional, but it happened. Just listen to the experts and double check your plans and your work, "homebuilt" or otherwise. Newly constructed experimental aircraft (homebuilts) have to be inspected by a government appointed examiner and have a 40 hr fly-off in a non populated area. Any major modifications after that need inspection and another 40hrs of test. Government regs might be annnoying, but if the prior mentioned owner builder had followed the rules, he wouldn't have had to open that garage door without a remote.

ps believe it or not, he somehow survived.

[cngmike]

As an EAA member I can only say 2 words about shade tree mechanics installing home brew kits.

John Denver.

Did some one say channel locks for fuel tank selector handle?

[bretlott]

What needs to happen is before a car can pass inspection someone that is certified must give the CNG equipment an inspection, EPA or Not. If it passes all the safety requirements and it looks good then the car could go on to get a registration, it’s that simple.
How hard would it be to put together some basic requirements for CNG installation and include that in our yearly safety inspections?
CNG is in my opinion is the wave of the future, its only going to get larger and with the price of gas you’re going to see a very big influx of CNG cars on the road especially in Utah. I hope we can see Non EPA kits legalized in Utah as long as they pass a safety inspection. I don’t see anything different about these kits than installing a nitrous kit on your rice rocket or a propane turbo on a diesel engine. You’re not taking away from the factory petrol system your simply adding to it. If it can pass emissions and safety what is the need for EPA certs?

[rkcarguy]

I totally agree there will always be someone that half-a$$es something and causes an accident or problem. The gravity feed situation in the airplane is a prime example. A airplane should not only have a fuel pump and diaphrapm style tank but also a back-up pump in case the first fails.
Your car stops, boat stops, it's no biggie. Your airplane stalls your going to be a greasy spot unless you're really lucky....
My past experience is that if brother doesn't like what you are doing, and you try to comply and jump thru the hoops, they will keep hounding you until you go under. You gotta come back with "you gotta warrant?" or "under what authority?" and then tell them to get the f-out.

[josch]

What needs to happen is before a car can pass inspection someone that is certified must give the CNG equipment an inspection, EPA or Not. If it passes all the safety requirements and it looks good then the car could go on to get a registration, it’s that simple.
How hard would it be to put together some basic requirements for CNG installation and include that in our yearly safety inspections?
CNG is in my opinion is the wave of the future, its only going to get larger and with the price of gas you’re going to see a very big influx of CNG cars on the road especially in Utah. I hope we can see Non EPA kits legalized in Utah as long as they pass a safety inspection. I don’t see anything different about these kits than installing a nitrous kit on your rice rocket or a propane turbo on a diesel engine. You’re not taking away from the factory petrol system your simply adding to it. If it can pass emissions and safety what is the need for EPA certs?

Perhaps you're on the right track here, but for the EPA to be happy they would then want floor dynometer emission tests during inspection so that CNG or other alt vehicle conversions would be tested under part and full throttle load, real life cruise, and decel, because they fear that the current idle, and no load cruise rpm emission tests that most states mandate don't tell the whole picture about how your motor is burning. You can read about this concern here on the EPA's site: http://www.epa.gov/fedrgstr/EPA-AIR/1998/June/Day-16/a15845.htm
I agree that most CNG conversions burn cleaner than gas, but supposedly they claim that some conversions do not. So if emissions test stations all had floor dynometer emission tests then they can all be tested to verify that under load, cruise, and decel, that the CNG car is in fact burning all-around cleaner than gasoline. Then you can get your registration renewed and be on your way.

[ch4]

Did some one say channel locks for fuel tank selector handle?

Electronic Code of Federal Regulations
Title 14: Tool use
PART 9999—GENERAL OPERATING AND FLIGHT RULES
§ 91.875 Tool use for fuel.
"... In flight, Channel Locks tm shall not be authorized for any selectors - Vice Grips tm are allowed under § 91.872."

[josch]

Well, there ARE plenty of dyno shops who could do the testing. It's not necessary to make EVERY testing station offer a dyno. Just make it the responsibility of the owner to get it tested, before he can register his vehicle.

Yeah I suppose your right. If you just went and got the full dyno emissions test once, and if you passed, they would let you take the standard test after that. Maybe only the full test every 4-5 years or something like that? ..On every car for that matter, gas or alt fuel. I think there are a lot of gas cars which can pass a 2-gas idle/no load cruise test, when they would flunk hard under load or decel. They should consider to periodically test all cars using dyno every several years

[Andy-Paul]

"I agree that most CNG conversions burn cleaner than gas, but supposedly they claim that some conversions do not." --From Josch

It seems to me that the answer has been laid out. We begin with the EAA-style education and information dissemination* while some of us self-train to get whatever certs are required to become CNG certified mechanics with access to conversion parts.

We then build our own "off-road" units. Next we hook in with some group like, say, the SWRI, (T. Boone Pickens? He might be interested!), or an engineering school that has deep enough pockets and/or sufficient grant-receiving clout to set up a test station for the "off-road" units' emissions tests. (I'd do it myself, but I haven't won the Powerball yet:o)

Next, we build a series of good tests for as many different engines as possible to demonstrate how much better the fuel technology is. Next, we ask someone like the Environmental Defense Fund (or maybe a law prof who wants to train a bunch of students on the ground--that has happened before) to provide the legal expertise that will carry the technical proof against the EPA's un-needed enforcement through the ensuing legal rat's maze built by turf warriors from both govt. and commercial interests.

Personally, I am pretty damned near busted flat, and that's before the @#$ inflationary pressure, but I would do my level best to get it rolling if the rest of y'all would pitch in, too. I would become a lobbyist for about $10/hour right now...


______________
*To give y'all an idea of just how relatively unknown CNG remains with respect to transportation in some parts of the country, about half of the commercial fleet managers I talked to here in NC (roughly 100) had no idea that it could even be an option.

I don't know precisely where everybody involved in this discussion lives, but one of the largest parts of the issue is that it rarely, if ever, gets noticed here on the East Coast--ie in proximity to that Babylon on the Potomac known as Washington, DC. I have brought it up to people all over the state, and the general reaction is "....Uhhh, is that the same as propane?" I know it isn't, you know it isn't, so why aren't we getting the message across any better?

[cngmike]

I have had 4 fittings come apart on me at pressures ranging from 2000 - 4500 PSI. 3 were made up at the production plant and one by my doings. This is way beyond exciting. In the worst caused scaring and a good size dent in the side of my truck. My point is when things go wrong at 3000 psi it can get deadly very fast. In tank testing 3 engineers where killed in tank burst tests. A bus was destroyed when a tank ruptured when fueling. A truck destroyed because of damage and expansion because of heat. I don't like the way things are being regulated emissions wise right now BUT.....safety wise all of these incidents resulted in improvements in safety for this industry.

DOT has stringent regulations on installation of kits NFPA & OSHA for station installation and maintenance. Home built aircraft has the EAA as a lobby and the FAA to over see safety. When building a home built you can get support form you local EAA chapter, the kit manufacture, your local collage, other builders and the FAA through oversight by a A&P mechanic. As of this point the only support an home converter has a limited number of collages and this message board. As with home builts no mater how many are successfully flying the very small minority incidents make news and closed businesses with law suits. CNG conversions have been around since the late 70's and the very few incidents all of which have made the news and closed some businesses. We do not have a big lobbing group or manufacture support, and I don't want to be on the road with some cobbled together system and the possible ramifications of it.

I have been in and around this business since 1991 and have seen it com a long way. It is at a turning point. It can go ether way I would hate to see it fail, or worse yet someone die because some one cut corners, use untested materials, and unsafe practices. The perfect outcome would be the auto manufactures get back into the American market place.

[Andy-Paul]

I certainly see your point. Can you think of a way to have someone be a qualified refitter and oversee a group of amateurs? I know that, as an engineer, I am religiously studying both NFPA structural code for CNG stations and NFPA 52 (?) for vehicle standards before even trying to talk to the local Fire Marshals' offices.

[josch]

I sometimes wonder if big brother government doesn't want us to switch over to CNG too easily (why they make it such a PITA to get onboard the CNG wagon), perhaps because they like having such a good marketplace to unload all of their used-up CNG fleet cars that they auction off. Could it be that simple? Could that be one reason? If they keep the CNG cars rare enough to the public, then they have no problem getting top dollar for their fleet cars when time to junk them. People buy them up like hotcakes for top dollar even, and with a smile on top of it all:) They probably don't loose much money on them either, since they buy them in quantity, rack high miles on them, then sell them to a desperate audience. So perhaps big brother is watching, because they don't want that to change, because that would perhaps mean cut-backs in their budgets, and layoffs. Don't forget that the US Government is the top publically traded company in the world that doesn't even have to trade on Wall Street. They know all the business tricks. They know how to take money from their customers, and then make them pay on top of that for additional services, like EPA cert, etc. They can blow up nuclear bombs under 'test' pretenses for years causing radioactive fallout and world-wide atmospheric and oceanic radioactive pollution that will last millions of years, and then tell the people they can't run their cars like they want, and that they know what is best for us, etc,etc,etc. I could go on for hours. Not to mention all of the pollution of their military fighter jets, aircraft carriers, etc. I wonder if any of that equipment has emission controls on them? Like I said, I could go on for hours.
Sorry for ranting on uselessly

It was just some stupid thought that came to mind as I was reading CNG literature tonight

[josch]

Sorry, I didn't mean to make it sound like the government is this big bad 'Borg' ship, I realize it is just a collective of people who tend to think they can do what they want, and just paint a pretty picture to the people, as long as it all seems like it works, meanwhile who knows what they all are thinking. I'm sure there are some government employees who have good intentions. I just tend to doubt that number of people is all that high

[John Mitton]

The EPA and CARB don't care if the fuel is diesel, gasoline, natural gas, propane, E85, B10, or grandma's kitchen grease. The point is that all vehicles must conform to the Clean Air Act, which means the onboard diagnostics simply must work as well as the vehicle did when the OEM brought it in to begin with.

This means some lab time to prove things out, but there is no conspiracy here.

[clean03]

Kripes! If they start asking for a "good kit card" at the pumps then what are you going to do?

[Andy-Paul]

The line between bureaucracy and public service can be very fine, especially when you walk it every day of your working life--ask my uncle, the retired NRC plant inspector, or my sister, the school teacher.

There are power trippers in civil service, sure--but I believe that there are more men and women in GS who care, and would be interested in figuring out how to make the regulations more flexible if it would lead to positive outcomes. Unfortunately, we have met the enemy, and he is us.

Remember the bi-fuel tax credit? That's why the requirement is now for dedicated CNG vehicles. Remember what happened to private employee pension funds a few years back? That's another reason why airline service is down the toilet. According to my wife's company accountant, Health Savings Accounts were about to suffer a similar fate until someone saw it coming and the Feds stopped the raiders.

I could not agree more with John Mitton. The regs do not care what we burn as long as it is ODBII compliant and passes the emissions test. To add my 2 cents to his statement, the question before us now is how do we change the system to remove unnecessary enforcement? Those tests exert recordkeeping and enforcement costs that EPA management would love to apply elsewhere. Those guys have to meet budgets just like the rest of us, and we would be doing all of ourselves a favor if we could come up with a legal way to demonstrate that the emissions tests are unnecessary and that some standardized safety test regime should suffice to keep CNG tanks as safe or safer than gasoline tanks in regular day-to-day use. Any suggestions?

Right now, I'm thinking along the line of refits and EPA/CARB testing at a Canadian university with US funding, since my understanding is that EC* rules are more flexible than ours on the matter of emissions. This would give us a chance to refit legally, then test, then present data through either the courts or Congress. What do you think? I go to bed around 6pm Mountain time, so please bear with me on any slow answers.
_______________________
*Environment Canada: functionally paired w/ the USEPA

[smggt]

Big brother (state of Utah) just asked a company here in Utah, that installs non epa certified conversions. To convert all of the states vehicles to there non epa certified conversions. How does that work? If its good enough for the state it is good enough for me. Looks like I may be getting one of theirs and SLOW MOTION will kiss my @$$. I know that the rep for the company that sells the conversions is meeting with the utah company and the state as well.
So much for your EPA ideas.
It is also at the legislature right now to review this whole situation. Maybe after all we can bring some of these prices down.

[Natural Tech]

Hey yall, ive been reading through these posts for some time now and this will be my first post. Ive spent considerable time researching the ins and outs of the conversion industry and the entire matter of EPA vs Non-EPA certified kits. Here's some contributions I can offer to the thread of "Big Brother is Watching". On Monday 19th May EPA officials in Denver CO mentioned that they are aware of non-EPA certified kits being installed in Utah and that they will be sending an enforcement team out to Utah very soon. In the past, their enforcement has been comprised primarily of cease-and-desist orders with very little if any fines or penalties being levied against infractors. If the EPA wanted to make an example out of anybody they can levy fines to the tune of thousands of dollars on a per vehicle or per day basis. Unfortunately, quality conversions as well as horrendous conversions are all lumped into the same problematic bucket where non-certified applications are concerned. Regarding research conducted on OBDII performance of typical aftermarket light duty natural gas vehicles, a recently completed research project will be presented at the IANGV conference in Rio De Janeiro, Brazil on June 3-5. The project was supported by the California South Coast Air Quality Management District, (SQUAMD), the New York State Energy R & D Authority (NYSERDA), and Natural Resources Canada in response to the fact that EPA and CARB did not have any knowledge of the OBD II performance when a vehicle was converted to run on natural gas and the gasoline monitoring system was simply used without alteration.
The following general conclusions were reached by the study:
• Provided that the certification level remains the same as the base gasoline vehicle, the gasoline monitors will generally detect faults with an NGV, at emissions levels below the malfunction criteria set by the OBD regulations.
• When the certification level on CNG is more stringent than the base gasoline vehicle, then the threshold levels may have to be reset from the gasoline settings.
Please follow this link for a detailed abstract on the paper:
http://www.ngvglobal.com/en/technology/obd-ii-performance-of-typical-aftermarket-light-duty-natural-gas-vehicles.html
Hope this helps yall, but most definitely progressive change is on the event horizon.:)

[smggt]

It looks to me like if the state of Utah goes through with what I have heard they are planning to do, with a non EPA certified conversion. On there own state vehicles. Then someone better bring the HAMMER down, and make an example out of the state. We all know that won't happen.
Telling people they can't do this and that, then they the state does it. I call BULL. My point is, if the state is talking to a company in utah that doesn't sell certified EPA CNG kits, and meeting with them and the company that supplies them (I am leaving names out of this). Where is the expample? It isn't setting a good example, when you get a company that thinks they can do it as well and they do a piss poor job.
What is wrong with the kits that the company is selling? They must be doing something right to get the state to want them to build there cars. (Because we all know that SLOW motion can't live up to their demand right now). It sounds like the state is even telling the EPA to go get screwed, and that they don't need to abide by the rules. There will be hell to pay if they do get away with it, and others are not allowed, as I heard one attorney put it.
Never the less. I do understand what you are saying about the rules, and OBD2, and everything else. I just wanted to point this out, and let people know that there is change comming, and it is on the horizion. Be patient.
I know this for a fact that this issue is being reviewed by the Govenor, and others on a legislative level as we speak.
Interesting isn't it.

[Andy-Paul]

I guess I'm not understanding why we would need to give Canada our money. It's possible to get EPA exemptions for research and testing, right here in the US of A.

There are plenty of international standards that are already being met in most of the rest of the world. One more foreign piece of evidence is unlikely to have any real impact.

I think if it was U.S. testing and research, it would hold more weight with our silly government. :)

The idea was not to give money to Canada or the EC, the idea was to run US EPA tests on Canadian dirt *if* it would be easier and cheaper to do so within their laws. Given the number of US cars and trucks assembled on both sides of the Great Lakes, my understanding is that automotive engineering is well-integrated between Canada and the US. Based on that, an accredited Canadian mech engg team would carry as much weight as an accredited US mech engg team, especially if they are running EPA tests.

As to whether or not a foreign test site would be acceptable to the EPA, I know that foreign test sites are approved by US governing bodies on a regular basis for other testing regimes required by our laws. Also, I was thinking that parts availability and variety might be better in Canada as they get some serious import-export tax breaks with Europe as a British Commonwealth nation. I think we can all agree that parts are a pain in the neck here, right?

If R&D exemptions were easily available in the US, I see no reason not to do it here, but would still suggest some kind of NAFTA partnership trans-shipment (I believe Mexico would save us money on Asian kits, while Canada would save us on to save money on European kits and it's quite legal. Most large industrial concerns here already do it, to varying extents).

Sorry for any confusion I may have caused.

[Natural Tech]

Sweet, there's some good action going on this thread, which imo is one of the most important concerns to Utahns right now. Do i go EPA Certified or not EPA Certified? If i go non-EPA certified what am i really getting myself into and what bad horrible things will the EPA do to me if i do? Are non-EPA certified kits just as good as certified ones? How will i know if im not a 20 year old veteran in CNG mechanics? Am i going to blow myself up with 3600 pounds per square inch of compressed methane? What exactly is the State of Utah doing or willing to do about this issue? Great stuff!

[Andy-Paul]

Good to have you aboard, neighbor! Also, thanks for the link to the paper's abstract--I might even cough up some money for a copy of that document when it becomes available. My guess is that any action that comes out of its findings--assuming they are good--won't kick in before Jan 2009 at the earliest, but that beats the current situation all hollow!

You westerners enjoy the talk. It's past my bedtime out here.

[Natural Tech]

Yeah im definitely throwing down some money on that research paper when its available, most likely as a download from NGVGlobal.com. That's in lieu of paying for the trip down there to Rio lol. I hear ya on the time frame....big govt is like a lumbering giant, takes time to accomodate and adjust to change, although on this point i personally believe the process for certification has to become more streamlined and cost-efficient in order for alternative fuels to really take off in this country. I do not want to see alternative fuels becoming the next gasoline of the millenium in the sense that it is tightly controlled by big-bucks companies. Alternative energy needs to be relatively cheap or even free for us to wake up out of the dinosaur industrial era where govt leaders and corporate executives continue to shack up in the same lodge. Off that little soap box i really do think that certification will become more efficient and less costly so that the masses can obtain conversions at a more affordable cost. On the time frame were looking at between 12-24 months. BBW = Big Brother Watching

[Yroc]

From everything I've read and researched, the EPA seems to be tons of UNDUE regulation. I have a converted Escalade from AZ, it's a simple system, it does not work without tripping the check engine light, but it works well and POLUTES LESS. Every aspect of a 3600psi gas system with CNG seems light years safter than gasoline in a tin can. What's the big deal?? I believe in being safe, but come on, open your eyes, EPA's interest is in making conversion to expensive for consumers. The parts are simple, the system is simple and the prices are high. Doesn't make sense....

[ashtonmotors]

I would like to address the issue regarding the use of EPA certified kits. I work in a large shop that specializes in the repair and conversion of CNG vehicles. Recently many customers have called our shop wanting to know if we install EPA certified kits. The conversation goes something like this: Do you install EPA certified kits? The answer is yes the kits that we sell have been certified for some vehicles for specific years. However these same kits have not been certified on all vehicles for all years. We have several really good universal kits that work extremely well on most makes and models of vehicles. However, these kits have not actually been EPA tested on every make, model and year of vehicle that is in service today. I then explain that there are numerous brands of cars with many different models and engine configurations. It costs approximately $25,000 to have one type of vehicle certified. For instance a 2004 Ford F150 pickup with a 5.4 liter engine would cost approximately $25,000 to get tested and certified. It would cost another $25,000 to have a 2004 Ford F150 pickup with a 4.6 liter engine tested and certified. That is $50,000 to have these 2 pickups certified. If you multiply this cost times every vehicle on the road, each year and with every engine variation it becomes very evident that only a major multi-billion dollar corporation, such as an oil company, could ever fund such an undertaking. I then explain that even though the vehicles are different, the components that we install on each vehicle are the same. We use the same kits on the car that was EPA tested as we do on the car that was not EPA tested. I then explain that each vehicle that we convert exceeds the Utah Clean Air Standards and is tested and certified compliant at the local Utah Safety and Emissions Station. CNG converted vehicles burn much cleaner than gasoline or diesel engines. I do not believe that anyone disputes this fact. The more vehicles we convert to run on CNG the cleaner the air here in Utah becomes. CNG cars also reduce our dependency on foreign oil and we also are able to use a local resource that is very plentiful. Additionally, natural gas is currently $3.10 a gallon less than gasoline. I do not know of anyone that has been fined for installing or owning an OBDII CNG conversion kit or for trying to improve the air quality. I do not believe that anyone really believes that CNG cars pollute more than gasoline cars. I believe that the EPA certification process is a very good idea for auto makers that can spread the cost of the testing over hundreds of thousands of cars. There is currently a lot of controversy over the EPA certification of CNG conversion kits. I believe that the state of Utah will eventually work out a viable plan that will promote CNG vehicles and facilitate cleaner air and allow us to use our own local natural energy resources.

[Yroc]

Most production CNG vehicles incremental cost seems to be between $5000 and $8000 depending on the vehicle. Shouldn't conversion be about the same?? Without EPA you can do this and you can do it safely. The EPA needs a way to keep conversions down, then consumers have a choice. Right now, a Civic is the only new car you can get as NG, in Utah there is a 1 year waiting list, so we should have the option to convert for a similiar cost. I am happy with the CNG vehicles I currently have. I am only interested in all this, 1. for the future and 2. to help my friends and family get into these cars as well.

Thanks for all the info, this is a great thread!

Also, I forgot, the high cost of conversions is causing older, very high mileage cars to sell for ridiculous prices. It would make more sense for people to spend their money on newer cars that are converted, rather than filling the state with all these expensive old cars. I figure that calculating the cost per mile, a new civic will cost less per mile than these cavaliers, contours and other older oem CNG vehicles. Anyone else see this as a problem?

[Andy-Paul]

As Henry Ford demonstrated, assembly lines are MUCH more cost-effective than single-man labor. Retrofitting is more expensive for a few reasons. First of all, you have to pay a guy for a few hours of labor to do the install. Secondly, he isn't going to be placing huge orders, so the cost per kit goes up, as well as the cost of freight.

Then there's the whole issue of certifications. If a manufacturer is going to mass produce a vehicle, it's easy to pay the $50,000 to certify a kit. If they make 10,000 of a vehicle, that's only $5 per vehicle in EPA "homage".

I personally don't buy the idea that it even costs manufacturers $5k to do it...


I disagree with your $50,000 cost estimate for the following reasons. I believe that it is quite low. First and foremost, EPA does not approve kits anymore. They only approve complete platforms, which means that unless you have something that is strictly a rebadge (Panther P71--Crown vic, Grand Marq and some MY Lincoln Town Car) the entire test regime must be repeated at the manufacturer's expense. What makes that expensive is the lack of correlation between what trips the MIL for petroleum fuel systems at 1.5x acceptable emissions level (ael), and what makes that same light go on for a CNG system at 1.5x ael. Therefore, a lot of very expensive engineering time (and donuts) goes into finding the magic number.

It's like trying to put a nail into unevenly spaced studs when they are covered with plaster, AND you are blindfolded (yep, grew up in an old house). I have tuned high temperature furnaces to meet EPA emissions across multiple fuels types, and it is quite a pain.

My guess would be that what the state of Utah is doing might be something like this. CARB and the NY State version of CARB have commissioned research to show that EPAs standards on CNG are completely whacked. After the report gets presented at the IANGV convention, the state will commence the remans, the EPA will formally charge the state and the state will formally file suit in Federal court to have the current enforcement regime thrown out.

Maybe I'm just too optimistic with that suggestion, but there is always room for hope, right?

[josch]

The other reason many people don't want to buy the EPA legal CNG cars on the road today, is because then your style options are very limited. Meaning you get the choice of a Civic (wow, looks like my grammas car), or a Cavy (can't pick up chicks in those), a 4-banger Contour, (disgusting), or a Crown Vic (don't want to look like a cop or a taxi), or of course the Suburban (I have no kids), or a 2-WD full size truck (gets stuck in the snow). I would wish I could do a swap on a car of my choice. Like one of the 4 cars I own free and clear now. I DO have one SUV that several years ago had EPA legal status for CNG kit from BayTech. The only problem now is, that the company wont dare sell me the kit, even though I am an ASE Master Tech, and I could prove that I know how to do the install with perfection. They said they might re-certify it with EPA again if I could find enough other people with the same vehicle to get in on like a group buy. What a joke! They just don't want to be liable is all. I mean I understand all that, but I swear, if the EPA doesn't change something, and fast, most people are just going to become outlaws, because the people are getting close to breaking point now with oil. If it means the difference between you not being able to ever go out or have a life because gas costs too much, or you can't even make your budget anymore, and all you had to do was make a small fib, then many people will eventually just say screw it and this will become one of those laws that people just get to the point where they don't care about it anymore, because they can at least survive and take their families camping again when they break this little law. Because you see, not everyone is rich.

[Andy-Paul]

The whole recertification requirement is fishy to me, too, Joshch. I mean, what is the difference between remanufacturing older vehicles' for CNG on prior certification versus gasoline or diesel engines being rebuilt--doesn't that work rest on prior certification as well? It certainly appears to be a legalized double standard.

Is it because the standards have changed in the case of CNG? If so, why don't the petro rebuilds have the same onus placed upon them?

I am deeply concerned about that issue, myself. I have two cars over ten years old, neither of which can be remanufactured for CNG under current rules. That means I will be forced to ditch both cars to get one that runs on CNG legally--not viable given my commute--or pray I can get something over the internet. I am still hopeful that something will give shortly. Then perhaps I can switch out one car for the long commute and leave one on gasoline for the local driving my wife does.

Can any of you moderators answer the question surrounding the legal distinction?

[Andy-Paul]

Oh, and to answer your question, if your vehicles are '95 or older, you can convert it if you want. There's no OBDII system to worry about, so you're not violating their rules. The tricky part is getting your hands on the kits. They're out there though, so if you want to do it, it's plenty plausible. Just make sure you use DOT approved tanks, and you're covered. Or you can make your own with readily available IMPCO parts.




I'm not sure where you got that part of the quote from, but I did not write it:mad:. As to the legality of new CNG conversions on post-1967and pre-1996 models, I wouldn't want to bet on that, particularly given the current enforcement climate.

As for your answer, what about a gasoline engine rebuild for a truck that is newer than 1995? My brother's '98 F250 is on its second rebuild (high mileage)

[josch]

Yeah, I don't get it. Why would EPA certifications ever expire in the first place! That is ridiculous. If a certain make/model/year passed in 1996 say, it should always be good even today and never expire. That is the most ridiculous, scandalous, low-life move they could pull on the people to give them the shaft so that they gain!

We seriously need reform in many branches of government since many of the dumb laws were made back when people didn't know jack and now that people are smarter, how can we still live by these dumbed down rules that they made in the olden days

[Andy-Paul]

It's past my bedtime, Josch, but I would like you to remember two things about who we were and who we are with regard to rules and laws.

Rules and laws are imperfect social structures made up by those imperfect vessels called humans. Also, what may look dumb today may have been quite an improvement over what came before it.

It's like the LED versus the incandescent bulb. Is the LED better, and a lot more efficient? Oh yeah. But electric lights beat candles and carbolic head lamps and gas jets all hollow in places like mine shafts in their day.

The best we can do is be open to the need for change, and if we're smart/lucky, to make that change available before the crisis occurs. This is not really on topic anymore, but I think it's important to remember. G'night.

[Yroc]

While I agree with the first part of your statement I disagree with the second.

1) These older cars are probably replacing gasoline burners. Thats good for the environment and the nation as a whole not only that persons bank account.

2) While I agree that car for car the civic is a better automobile. Which one is better, a car that you can drive now or one that you have to wait a year to hopefully get?

3) Mile for mile is fine but you also have to look at dollar for dollar. Even after the tax encintives I had the option of of buying 1 GX or 2 cavvies. I chose the latter. Now I have taken 2 gasoline burners off the road and pocketed twice the amount of fuel savings as I would have with 1 GX. My 04 getts 33-35 MPGGE on the highway which is not as good as the GX but pretty good nontheless and I doubled the effectiveness with 2 of them as opposed to 1. It also has a the newer ecotec engine which is a pretty good engine in itself.

Also my wife nor myself have to sweat bullets when taking a trip outside our normal driving areas and thats worth a little bit also.

So I say older more available oem cars for the win.

How long ago did you buy your used cavies?? They have probably gone up a couple thousand since then. I would say even a month ago, a used bi-fuel was the way to go. I was just trying to say that the prices to get into these used cars just doesn't make as much sense as it used to. All good points, thanks for your input.

[kris]

Your understanding of the AIR system is flawed. Read this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_injection_reactor


Lets take a 70-80's Chev pickup for example. These didn't pass emissions requirements, so an air pump was installed pumping extra air into the exhaust manifolds decreasing the PPM to an acceptable level overall, but not actually decreasing the emissions. Then you've got the extra drag of the air pump and its belt on the engine pulling down mileage and efficiency.......

[Andy-Paul]

First of all, apology accepted--to err is human, to do it up but good get a computer involved. I should not have let it ride my shorts up so.

My question about the F250 comes from it being on the
2nd engine rebuild. That rebuild requires no recert beyond a tailpipe test at inspection time, whereas rebuilding it to run on CNG involves getting someone who is a Qualified System Retrofitter to do so, and then ONLY if there is a renewed EPA cert for that year, which I believe would set the QSR back another US$750 or so.

In the case of a pre-ODBII ride (say,that very clean Volvo 240 on my street with a broken odometer!), EPA rules say that it must meet the emissions requirements for its model year. The rules appear to be pretty explicit that any refit has to be tested in Ann Arbor, MI, in order for the SVM to allow it on the road without experiencing heavy fines.

Can you or anyone else who has been slogging through this techno-legal swamp for awhile quote chapter and verse of the EPA rules that declare a pre-ODBII MY conversion exempt from tampering rules?

I have a competent gas-certified (ASME F-1?) local mechanic as well as kin in the UK and Canada to help me score the appropriate electronics from the EU without the extra taxes, but I will only do it if legal--based upon strict construction of the rules. Other places in the forum say stuff like

"...Here in Utah vehicles 1967 and older are exempt from emission testing..." or

I have been looking into conversions also. I am sure this old of Volvo has to have a carb. These are usually simpler as they don't require computer work. I saw a company who have kits minus the tanks custom made for almost any vehicle." (Maxman)

Also, John Mitton said that he thinks that pre ODBII has no EPA restrictions, but that he hasn't looked into it. (See CNG Conversions and Refits-- Can old cars like my 1963 Volvo become CNG cars?)

I would be one of the very first out here to go CNG, it would be high profile (commuting down the main section of I-85/I-40 5 days/week), and I want to be as clean on the compliance front as on the emissions signature.

[younkin]

Older Volvos have dual carbs and they can be a pain at times, Jim

[Andy-Paul]

The 240 in question is from the last years they made the beast 90-93 and has FI. If it didn't I would upgrade prior to the reman. The only carbs I want to work on are on my '47 IH KB5 (which I dream of owning one of these days :D)

[John Mitton]

Folks, please keep this thread on topic of regulatory enforcement, thanks.

[Andy-Paul]

INAL either. Just to see what would happen, I called my regional EPA office to ask the question:
"Does the EPA allow for NG remans on pre-OBDII systems without making us go through the entire EPA certification process?"

The person to whom I spoke said that the person who could best answer that is out of town right now but should be back in the office on Monday or Tuesday of next week.

The second part of the conversation was even more interesting. My contact said that they would first try to take care of it at the regional level in order to seek a loophole that would allow it, thus benefitting everyone--we save money on gas, they get the spirit of the EPA mandate advanced by bringing about cleaner emissions signatures on older cars and trucks.

If that loophole appears, I will post it on this forum, then send a redacted copy (no names without the permission of the writers) of that written opinion to my entire congressional delegation as well as Senator Inehofe and Senator Boxer asking them to make it a national loophole. Keep yer fingers crossed U., and we may pull something off yet.^

[cngbuck]

Look at Europe, and particularly Germany. They have some of the strictest environmental standards in the world, and most of the CNG kits are manufactured to those specs. Yet here in the "land of the free" we can't run on CNG because of technicalities and red tape. I do believe that we should lobby for CNG to be exempted from the OBD II technicalities for tampering, then as long as the emissions are clean and meet the guidelines we can have affordable conversions available. There may be a few kits that are crap and throw off a a fuel mixture balance, but most of the major CNG kit players are putting out top notch products that should not be illegal.

[sgcng]

Just wondering if there are any updates?

[Dmitry]

I am also interested if there was any follow up to this. My computer shows there are 8 pages, but I can only read 7. So allow me to post this just to see if it will work.

[Andy-Paul]

No news yet. Long about coffee break Monday morning I will try them again to see what if anything has happened. As a caveat, please remember that I am talking to the regional EPA office in Atlanta, whereas most of y'all would need to talk to the EPA office in Denver or ??? to verify the opinion of the folks in Atlanta.

Now, I have heard from Jeff Clarke at NGVAmerica that there are new rules to clarify pre-OBDII systems, but I am unsure as to whether he was talking about the 'Dear Manufacturers' letter from earlier this year or whether he is referring to one upcoming. I will inquire about that too, while I'm on the phone.

PS Dmitry: I can't get past page 7 either, but since this is still on p.7, perhaps we're OK.

[Andy-Paul]

Hey;

I called in Monday morning, and, of course, the person I wanted and the person's backup were both at a conference out of town.

Now, I could be an unbridled optimist and suppose that their meeting will officially wash out that starch of regulatory ignorance so grievously ironed into our technical shorts in the form of OBDII compliance certs and reqs--but even I'm not that much of an optimist.

Unless she checks her vmail, I will have no response before 3 July. :td:

[Jack Sparrow]

I have a Tank teacher coming to Pleasant Grove UT in Sep. It will not be cheep to come but we may have room for one or two more!